The Red Review — New Brunswick CUPE Workers on Strike FT. Mackenzie Thomason Provincial Leader of the NDP

All the people who work on The Red Review live and work on stolen Indigenous lands across Turtle Island. There can be no reconciliation without restitution, which includes Land Back and seizing the assets of the major resource corporations and returning them to the commons. 

In this bonus episode of The Red Review, brought to you by Socialist Action, Emily and Daniel interview Mackenzie Thomason, bus driver, CUPE 1253 member, and recently acclaimed leader of the New Brunswick NDP.

Mackenzie talks picket line vibes, community support, demands of striking workers, taking on the Irving empire, government ban on land acknowledgements, and a surging New Brunswick NDP that puts people first, not profit!

Links:

Facebook: New Brunswick NDP
Twitter: New Brunswick NDP
Petition: "Time for Blaine Higgs to Resign" and Article
Article: "Province-wide job action is the only way left for us to be heard" by  President of CUPE New Brunswick Steven Drost

Some Previously Shared Links:
Website: No New Fighter Jets
Website: Canadian Foreign Policy Institute
Website: Encampment Support Network
Website: Palestine Youth Movement
Twitter: Palestine House
Website: No Pride in Policing Coalition
Website: Red Braid Alliance
Linktree: The Rainforest Flying Squad
FundRazr: Last Stand for Forests
GoFundMe: Support For Indigenous Land Defenders — Fairy Creek

Transcript

Emily Steers  0:14  
Hello greetings and solidarity everyone. This is Emily steers with The Red Review podcast. I use she/her pronouns, and I am coming to you from the unceded territory of the Anishinaabeg and the Haudenosaunee peoples, also known as Guelph, Ontario,

Daniel Tarade  0:31  
and Hello everybody, my name is Daniel, I use he/him pronouns. And I am coming to you from the lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabeg, that Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat people here in Tkaronto. All the people that work on The Red Review podcast, and all members of Socialist Action Canada, both live and work on stolen indigenous land from across Turtle Island. We understand that there can be no reconciliation without restitution, which includes Land Back and seizing the assets of the major resource corporations and returning them to the commons.

Emily Steers  1:11  
Today, we have a special edition of The Red Review. We are going to be interviewing Mackenzie Thomason, who uses he/him pronouns, and he is coming to us from the unceded territories of the Peskotomuhkati, Wolastoqiyik, and Mi’kmaq people also known as New Brunswick, and New Brunswick, for those of you who don't know has been an exciting place of political activity lately. For the last 11 days over 22,000 CUPE members in New Brunswick have been on strike and Mackenzie as leader of the New Brunswick NDP has played a very significant role in organizing and leading that strike.

Daniel Tarade  1:52  
We're really excited to have Mackenzie on the show, he will be breaking down for us the strike, what the demands are, what the reception from the community has been, and what it has been like as a socialist now being the leader of the New Brunswick NDP party. So we hope you all enjoy this episode as we extend our solidarity to the working class people of New Brunswick and the workers all around the world.

Ellen  2:19  
This month red review is proud to announce that we are not sponsored by SNC Lavalin, the Quebec-based engineering procurement and construction company, with over 50,000 employees and offices in over 50 countries, with revenue in 2018 of $10.1 billion. Founded in 1911, by Swiss born Arthur Surveyer, who became partners with Nenniger and Chênevert, making it SNC Lavalin. This company has been embroiled in and has doggedly escaped allegations and prosecutions for bribery in India, Libya and Bangladesh. Here in Canada in 2019, while still facing criminal charges with regard to several contracts, SNC Lavalin sought a deferred prosecution agreement so that it could continue operations in Quebec. The Director of Public Prosecutions Kathleen Roselle, however, declined to granted a DPA and its share price dropped, making it vulnerable to a hostile takeover. The case became subject to the Canadian Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion, who found that Trudeau and his office inappropriately tried to influence the then Attorney General and Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould. Meanwhile, Trudeau maintain that no laws were broken and that offering Lavalin a DPA would save jobs. Trudeau also claimed he was unaware of the erosion of trust in the prime minister's office due to his attempts to influence the Attorney General and Minister of Justice. Jody Wilson was expelled from the Liberal caucus in the aftermath of the controversy and ran as an independent in the 2019 election and held onto her seat in Vancouver Granville during that election. Public sympathy was on her side among voters. Just before the recent 2021 federal election, however, Jodi Wilson-Raybould decided not to run again in the federal election in Vancouver Granville constituency, and the constituency returned to the Liberals but by just 436 votes with Anjali Appadurai of the NDP, a valliant campaigner for climate justice coming in a very close second. The SNC Lavalin affair will go down in history as playing a lasting role in the erosion of public trust in government and business here in Canada and will no doubt doggedly follow the Trudeau Government in the years ahead.

Emily Steers  5:04  
Alright everyone. Welcome to a special edition episode of The Red Review. Today we are going to be doing an interview with Mackenzie Thomason, who is a member of CUPE local 1253 and is also the new leader of the New Brunswick NDP. He's also a socialist and a member of socialist action and the NDP Socialist Caucus. Welcome, Mackenzie.

Mackenzie Thomason  5:27  
Thank you very much for having me.

Emily Steers  5:28  
So Mackenzie right now there is a huge job action happening in New Brunswick. Can you tell us a little bit about that, just like some of the context of what's going on, what is being demanded, and how the strike is going?

Mackenzie Thomason  5:42  
Yeah, so I would like to start off with how the strike is going. This is day 11. And I know some people are you know, we're out on the picket lines every day. It's cold, it's wet, it is November in New Brunswick, so I do just want to say first of all, that the strikers the people on the picket lines, we are still very, very determined and very, very excited to be there. We know what you're worth. And we are very, I keep saying very because I want people to know that our our determination has not waned on the actual picket lines. And the support that we're still getting from the public is absolutely amazing. Other CUPE locals, other union locals have been bringing us food and coffee. Tim Hortons doughnuts are keeping us sustained. So it has been a great sense of camaraderie on the picket lines. And, you know, we obviously would prefer to be back at work, because a lot of us are education workers or health care workers or social workers. So we we want to be with our clients and our students and our passengers again, but we know that being out here is what is going to get us the cost of living wage increases that we want. And most importantly, it's going to allow us to maintain our current pension. That I'm going to use the segue into why we are on the picket line. So about 22,000 22,000 CUPE workers in New Brunswick have been on the picket line since Friday or Saturday, depending on your local, not last week, but the week before. This was our second weekend on the line. The main reason was they've been without a contract in some locals for four or five years. My local has been without a contract since 2019. So we are going on three years with no contract. And basically what that means is because the other contracts are expired, we keep working under the conditions of that contract. So no one has had a wage increase since their contract expired. So we have been working for zeros, not 0.25, not 0.75, we've been working for zeros. In 2019, the wage for a bus driver was $20.28 an hour. And that is the same today. So no one has actually received a pay increase since their contract expired. Now it's going to be really easy to blame the current Conservative government for that, but they've only been in power for the last three years. So the previous Liberal government actually is responsible for some of these contract failures as far as making sure they're not negotiated. The current Conservative government led by Blaine Higgs is actually doing the bulk of the damage, which is of course forcing 22,000 CUPE locals CUPE local members sorry out on strike forcing strike votes in other sectors as well, including nursing and the New Brunswick Liquor Corporation. It has been a long time coming. Due to  COVID, obviously, the unions did put off job action, which they have been legally allowed to do for quite some time. However, COVID is, you know, somewhat subsiding in our province, and we are following COVID protocols when we are out on the picket line. But it is really important to understand why we're out there. And it is because a lot of us have been operating on zeros for a very long time operating without a contract for a very long time. It's come to this point, not because we want to be on the picket line, but because the government refuses to negotiate fairly with its public sector union. Yeah, it's it's been a time but I think, you know, as far as what's going on, it has showed that the government is willing to move on some things. So what we're actually looking for from the government initially was a 5% per year increase over four years. That would help us come up more closely to the cost of living, and it would help us more adequately pay for, you know, necessities like food and gas and housing and whatnot. So that was our initial offer. On wages, specifically, the union came down to what is equating to approximately 15% over five years. So it equates to about 8% drop and the province actually came up to approximately 15% on average, which for them came up I believe, about 7 or 8% on average. So it we did more or less meet in the middle. Obviously the union gave more concessions that I would have preferred, but — as is often the case — but the main reason they did it is because the government wants to take the defined benefit pensions of CUPE members in 1253 and 2745, which are bus drivers, custodians, maintenance workers, as well as payroll clerk, administrative assistants, educational assistants, and administrative support more broadly. That was the main reason. It's still the main sticking point. So like I say, we've basically come together on wages, we have more or less come together on all of the other aspects of the contracts. But it's the pension plans for those two locals that are really causing the sticking points, Blaine Higgs and the Conservatives wants to move to a shared risk model. And currently, the pensions are defined benefit. That's really where the main sticking point is right now. And it's where the two sides can't really seem to compromise, mostly because the members of those unions don't want their defined benefit pensions taken away from. I'm very thankful that the union is fighting for that. I just started being a bus driver. So that pension is something that could very easily accumulate over the next 40 years of service. So I'm very happy that they're fighting for that. But the government is is definitely digging in its heels.

Daniel Tarade  11:21  
Yeah. So do you want to describe a little bit more? What is the difference between a defined benefit and a shared risk pension model? Pensions often get buried a bit when it comes to the union negotiations and union struggles, often the headlines are more dominated by the wage, which is more easily understandable. But when you think about pensions, and the working class, you work your whole life, so that at some point, you're promised you can retire. So what is at risk right now by going from a defined benefit to a shared risk? 

Mackenzie Thomason  11:52  
Yes. So right now, your pensions are basically the same regardless of circumstance. If you're getting $500 a month, I don't have the exact number with me, but I'm just using that number as an example. So if you get $500 a month, you get that every month, regardless of economic or stock market circumstances. And every year, it adjusts with inflation. So it makes sure that you can retire with dignity and make sure that you can retire having the same amount of income every month, regardless of like I say, economic circumstance, and it really moves the risk and reward onto the government. If the investments they do with the pension funds do really, really well, then the government would be able to reap those benefits and invest them again into pension funds to keep it sustainable. However, with shared risk, it's all dependent on the market. So if the market does really well, then congratulations your pensions do really well, and you can increase your monthly income. If the economy does bad, if the stock market does bad, then what you can have is a decrease, in some instances up to 30% of your regular monthly income. So it puts pensioners in this limbo state where, oh, great, I get a little bit more money this month. But I don't want to spend it because next month, I could lose 20% of my income. And I still need to pay for my mortgage or my rent, food and clothing. And you know this that the next thing, so it really puts pensioners in a precarious spot. And that's really the point I've been focusing on when I talk to people on the picket line is, I would be willing to settle for a little less money if the pension was protected. Obviously, I think I am worth a living wage. Right now, I actually make less than minimum wage because I only work for 10 months out of the year. And EAs are in that same boat, we don't get paid all year round like teachers, you know, we're making $23,000 to $27,000 a year and minimum wage in this province is A.) way to low at about $24,500 a year before deductions. When we talk about those pensions, it's really a way to provide a stable and steady income for people who have worked their whole lives and who have earned this. I was talking to somebody the other day and they said, Well, nobody owes me anything. And I was like, we're not talking about owed, it's earned. Right? You work for 40 years, you work for 50 years, you should be able to retire and have no too little worry about being able to pay your bills. Right. You've done your job, you have worked hard you have done what you were asked to do by society and by the economy. You need to be able to have that kind of comfort in your retirement and shared risk does not provide that whereas defined benefit does. Now, with defined benefit, if the investments do well obviously the government reaps that benefit. But if the government is doing what it is supposed to, it will invest that money back into the pension fund to keep it sustainable. That's the main thing we hear from Blaine Higgs that the retirement plans aren't sustainable. Well, the only reason they couldn't continue is that the government decided not to use them properly. Right? Investments do bad, you top it up. If investments do well, congratulations, you have more money in the pot. This idea that they are unsustainable and going nowhere is really a conservative talking point, which is ironic, because they usually tout themselves as great fiscal management. But they can't find a way to properly invest this money and manage pension funds. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too. And it's just, they can't they can't be great at fiscal management and terrible at pension management. And say, those are both good things.

Emily Steers  15:42  
Yes, indeed. So could you expand a little bit more? I know, you mentioned at the beginning that there has been a lot of support for the workers on strike, which is amazing. But can you tell us a little bit more about like, what's the feeling both on the picket line and from the rest of the community?

Mackenzie Thomason  15:59  
So on the picket line itself, the amount of people who have stopped in and provided water and coffee and food and even blankets on the days where it was really cold is blowing me away. We had NDP members from across the province tell us how each picket line is getting support from Moncton and Bathurst and Miramichi, St. John. So it's great to see the public support, the communities are really rallying behind us. At one spot down in Hampton on a picket line, a local business owner who runs a small fast food restaurant, like a local it's not a chain, I should say. He actually came in he had brought dinner, like full dinner, like chicken, coleslaw, and, and all the fixings, rolls and everything, to picketers. And the next day, he came out, and he gave them all a coupon for a free chicken dinner. So those people are so numerous, it has blown me away. And I think it's something that the government really didn't count on was the huge public support. And obviously, when that happens, it just it boosts morale on the picket lines so much because we know we're not standing just with ourselves, the public is standing with us. So you know, you always get the one or two people I can count on one hand, how many negative reactions we've got while on the picket line, and I've been on the picket lines, nine out of the 10 days so far, which is great, you know, some people and it's not their fault, they've been told this by the government, they're believing it that we are overpaid, or that we're asking for too much. And I would just like to remind you that I make less than minimum wage a year. So they really is great. The feeling that we're getting from the community is that they are supporting us that they are behind us. And that they believe that as we take care of their children, mostly the patient workers, as we take care of their communities, as healthcare workers, or social workers, that they are grateful for that that they believe that we are doing good work and that they are standing with us. So it is a great feeling. When you see somebody coming up to the picket line, who is not a union member, who is a member of that community, and it's happening more and more as the pickets go on, it's not decreasing, it's actually increasing. So it's been great.

Emily Steers  18:10  
Awesome. That's so good to hear.

Daniel Tarade  18:13  
That is really heartening to hear because we all stand to benefit when there's a successful strike. If a strike happens, and workers bring up their standard of living, that is leverage that other workers can use to fight for their own justice in their own area. And like you mentioned, you are the people that are doing public service. Of course, you want the person that's teaching your child to be paid a living wage, and doesn't bring all that toxicity and resentment and desperation into the classroom. That's wonderful. There was one tactic it seemed like the government tried during the first lockout, where they weren't communicating the intention of the union to walk out to the parents so as to maybe try and drive a wedge between the parents and the workers. How did that work out?

Mackenzie Thomason  19:01  
Not so well for the government. That's how we were hoping it would go. So basically, what happened was the union told the government before midnight that they were intending to take job action the following day, which was Thursday night, trying to take action Friday morning. The notice was not given to parents until I believe 6:00 or 6:30 that morning. And in some cases, it wasn't actually communicated until seven o'clock on the news. So as a bus driver, I start picking up kids at five to seven. I knew the day before that I was going to be on strike on Friday. So here I am as a school bus driver wondering, Okay, are there children waiting out on the side of the road at five or ten to seven in the morning in the cold waiting for a bus that will never come? I did tell all of my elementary parents when I pick the kids up in the morning, I told all the parents that were out there that I could find I said, Listen, starting tomorrow morning, meaning Friday, you need to check to make sure your buses run. Mostly that is because we are so short on bus drivers that I was thinking I was going to be 90 minutes late anyway. So obviously it worked out in their benefit, because they were checking the bus schedule before they left the house, which was great because the bus wasn't coming. But a lot of bus drivers, you know, we were sitting there, and we're like, oh, great, our kids are gonna be out in the cold. And it was a way for the government to try to drive a wedge. What the result was was nothing. I mean, the parents very clearly got mad at the government for not telling them. When the government went to move everybody on to online schooling, there was a resounding call from parents just say we're not doing. We're not putting our kids through online schooling. There's no need for it. We're not in a great health emergency anymore, as far as our schools go here in the province, so we're not doing it. And I was talking to a person on the picket line whose daughter is a teacher in St. John, grade nine and 10, I believe is what he says, you know, 9 and 10, or 10 and 11. And she has four classes on Mondays. In each of those four classes, the most kids she had show up to online learning was five.

Aha, kids are going on strike too!

Exactly! These are these are teachers who normally teach classes of you know, 25 or 30 students and they were having five or six show up.

Emily Steers  21:27  
So then have students been coming to school in person then?

Mackenzie Thomason  21:31  
No, so the government actually locked the school. So they locked out EAs, locked out bus drivers, so we're actually technically in a lockout right now. Now, the great thing is that they're showing up to the picket lines. I had a kid come up to me on Friday, actually, he came in his full Deadpool costume. Great kid, comes up and he's got the full mask on, everything. He pulls up my sleeve. And he goes, Do you remember me? I'm looking at him, and he's fully masked, like, he's got a Deadpool mask on. Like, buddy, I don't know who we are. He takes his mask off, and he's like Remember me now? I'm like, Oh, my goodness. So he had actually come with his mother. And I drove him on the bus. So him and his younger brother both came, and I got my picture taken with them. And it was great — My heart — especially on the first day of the picket line, I'm like, Are these kids gonna be waiting out in the cold, and then these two kids show up and they're like, you're a great bus driver, I wish you were driving today. And I'm like, Ah, I love it. Thank you so much. And that really goes to show how much the parents are on board. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they would prefer their kids to be at school most of the time. But they are very supportive. And they understand that part of the reason why their buses are running 90 minutes late sometimes because we don't have enough drivers. And to fix that problem, we need to offer better wages and better benefits. And that's what we're fighting for. And parents are definitely understanding that. And it's something I think the government's underestimating.

Emily Steers  22:50  
So can you tell us a little more about Stephen Drost? I know he's a new leader of CUPE. Is this a change from previous CUPE leadership? How is he faring as this relatively new leader?

Mackenzie Thomason  23:04  
So I want to congratulate him, first of all, give him a huge pat on the back. He was elected, I don't think it was even a year ago, really, here he is leading 22,000 people into the job action. So he is doing an amazing job. Given the fact that he has just started, he was probably just finishing up what was probably a very quick transition period, I really couldn't give any better endorsement to somebody. He is doing an amazing job. He is also a member of our provincial council, which is great. So him and I, you know, when we're not striking are going to be able to work together quite closely on a party level as well. But the team he has around him is amazing. He is doing a great job.

Daniel Tarade  23:44  
McKenzie, you already made it very clear that it's been you know, three, four, up to five years, in some instances that CUPE members haven't been able to negotiate a new contract. It's been over multiple governments. So liberals, and then the Progressive Conservatives. Is really the spark that finally brought us to job action, is it new leadership? Is it the effects of the pandemic, just finally boiling everything over? What do you think it took for workers that have had grievances for over three, four or five years to finally stand up for themselves?

Mackenzie Thomason  24:17  
I really think it was the pandemic. You know, we were ready to take job action back in November of 2019 and in the spring of 2020, and I believe that was actually part of a plan that was happening was to take job action in the spring of 2020. However, due to the pandemic, we did put it off and it was something that was simmering amongst a lot of members throughout the pandemic. And I think the fact that the government kept calling us heroes and kept thanking us for all of our dedication, and nothing could get done without us and without our valiant public sector workers, we couldn't get anything done. And then as the pandemic started to subside, all of a sudden we went back to being undervalued and underappreciated, so I think that really was the spark that got everybody going, not something that we hadn't been thinking about for a very long time, but with the pandemic, we wanted to put public health first, which we did. And we waited until it was better timing, as far as the pandemic went. I really think that was what the catalyst was when everything kind of gotten more back to what it was before the pandemic. And all of a sudden, we went back to, oh, well, you don't deserve a fair raise, you don't deserve decent benefits. Well, three months ago, I was a hero. And now, I don't deserve what you've been telling me I've been worth for a very long time. So I actually think the government is more to blame for this feeling of I know my worth than than anybody else's. And it's really, because they have been telling us what is true. They've been telling the truth for the last year and a half. So now you need to start treating us like that. And I think that was what really got everything going, especially now the pandemics more or less your control here in the province.

Emily Steers  25:56  
So speaking of leadership, taking initiative and all that great stuff, you yourself have recently been elected, or I should say, acclaimed as leader of the NDP in New Brunswick. Can you tell us a little bit about how that's been going?

Mackenzie Thomason  26:11  
Yeah, so very quick learning curve — no doubt — I was claimed in September, and we at mid September, actually, we were on job action by the end of October. So I had about six weeks there to really get my bearings. It is an amazing job. I really wouldn't trade being leader of the party for anything. I like helping people. I like advocating for people. And this allows me to do that. We have a new team, as far as a new administrative assistant that started in August of last year and a new executive director who started actually in the middle of October. It has been an amazing experience coming back into this role as permanent leader from interim leader there last year. And we have a great group of people who are really willing to make this party work, who are willing to put their hands and get a little dirty, put a little elbow grease in and make this party viable the next election and I'm very happy to work — amazing.

Daniel Tarade  27:09  
If I am in tune enough with New Brunswick politics, the New Democratic Party there was pretty moribund for quite some time and in the last provincial election, and correct me if I'm wrong. The NDP got something like 2% or less of the provincial vote.

Mackenzie Thomason  27:25  
Yes, so that is correct. We got 1.7%. It was 1.69, but we're gonna round that up to 1.7 because I get to.

Daniel Tarade  27:33  
Yes, and it was around that time then that there was an election for interim leader. And that was Chris Thompson who won, who is also a member of the NDP socialist caucus and a member of socialist action. You too, and all the other members of the New Brunswick NDP kind of shifted directions. What has been the shift between what the NDP was prioritizing before to what y'all are doing now?

Mackenzie Thomason  27:58  
Yeah, so politics in New Brunswick is missing a large opportunity as far as supporting a voter bloc, and that is that, you know, the Progressive Conservatives and the People's Alliance, which is a local party here in New Brunswick are situated on the right to, I don't want to say center-right, but that's where political scientists probably put them. And then the Liberals kind of sit between the center-right and the center ish. And then you have the Greens that fit kind of center-left to the center as well. So there's a whole group of New Brunswickers, who are being underrepresented or not being represented at all. And those are the progressive New Brunswick, mostly young people who are saying, you know, listen, we have a planet that we're going to inherit, we have a province that we're going to inherit that we need to make better. You know, we're only 20, 30 years old, we've got a very long way to go here. And we need to make sure that it's sustainable. Those people across the board are the ones that the NDP now is seeking to represent, not just young people, but seniors who need to be guaranteed that the retirement that they have is secure, that if they need nursing home services, that they're going to be there and be well-funded. So I don't want to use the term big tent, but we're big tent on the left to make sure that we're not just representing like I say, young people, we're not just representing aging people, we're not just representing low wage workers. We are not just representing seniors, we're representing everyone and giving them what they deserve, which is dignity in their life and dignity in their work. You're absolutely right. The New Brunswick NDP has been a little slow at capitalizing on our branding here in the province as far as getting people the services they need. But with Chris Thompson, and he was an amazing interim leader, I do want to give him a huge, huge thank you because he set this party up in an amazing, amazing way, and it wouldn't have been as easy to transition to if he had not been here to do the work he did so it has been great to have him here especially as a fellow member of the Socialist Caucus, it really paved the way to having a very sound leadership transition. And the thing I really want to emphasize is that we are offering progressive solutions that no other party is, that no other party wants to touch. And that is what's going to allow us to move forward. In the past, we have focused on, you know, I like to say liberal policies, because if the Liberals can steal it, it's not a progressive policy — Yes — If we say, Okay, we're gonna raise the minimum wage to $14 an hour or $15 an hour, and the Liberals come out and say, Oh, we're gonna do that too. Well, if they can steal it, it's probably not really going to benefit people, not on a mass scale. You know, we're talking about canceling student debt. We're talking about electoral reform and meaningful electoral reform, nationalizing our public services to make sure that they are no longer in the hands of private interests. Those are things that the Liberals and the Greens really aren't going to touch. And that is what's going to allow us to really hook into these grassroots organizers that are going to allow us to grow because that's what they want to see. They want to see real solutions and different solutions to problems that have existed for what's now going on decades. I am very confident that because we have taken this shift in a more progressive direction that we are no longer offering half solutions but actual solutions. It's going to allow us to grow our voter base and allow us to ensure that we are representing as many New Brunswickers as possible.

Emily Steers  31:30  
Amazing. I've also heard that you're going to be taking on the Irvings which in New Brunswick is no mean feat.

Mackenzie Thomason  31:37  
It's actually funny because the places we do the best are the places where the Irving's are most entrenched. St. John, New Brunswick is kind of their capital base as far as the Irving Empire goes. And that's where we tend to do the best as well as up north where they have a lot of lumber interests. Again, we tend to do very well up there, you know, I am into taking on any billionaire who thinks that they deserve services when the rest of us don't. Irving is a very easy example to use because they are the largest corporation in the province. They are also the largest employer, which is usually what the Conservatives use to say, What if they just up and moved. If you could show me a real example of how they're going to dismantle their refinery overnight and move it to the Bahamas, I would be worried. But what they're going to do is they're going to say, if you don't do what we want, we're going to leave and I'm going to look at them and go, you want to leave, you go right ahead. Then, we just get the refinery, put it into the public trust, and employ everybody the same as we did before. And we use that revenue to transition to a sustainable green economy. Basically, it's a feudal system here in New Brunswick, they more or less own the entire province and can do with it what they please. And they're not going to want to give that up. So they're either going to have to play ball with us and help us invest in the public services by paying their fair share in taxes and paying their fair share in property taxes. Or they can leave. But when they leave, we're not going to have this terrible feeling of desertion and have people on the streets having to look for new jobs, what we're going to do is we're going to meet them and say, Listen, you get to stay in your job, keep doing the work you're doing, what you're doing is working because they're making a profit. And we transition to a better, greener economy using those revenues of a $4 billion a year company.

Daniel Tarade  33:25  
Amazing. That's really awesome. It's very refreshing. And it's so important to highlight this. I try and tell this to as many Ontarians I know, but the NDP does not have to choose between progressive politics and electoral success. In fact, in New Brunswick from what I'm following from a distance, it's going step in step together. We already established 1.7%. In the last provincial election, as I'm following the polls here, even though the NDP is taking bigger and bolder steps and demands, they're now polling at more like 13%, 14% in less than a year. So what do you take from that?

Mackenzie Thomason  34:04  
Well, I think it indicates that New Brunswickers want progressive solutions. They want ideas that are going to help them. They don't want these half solutions. They don't want these half measures. They want somebody to come out and say listen, these are your problems. We know what your problems are because they are our problems too. We are not rich people. I am a school bus driver. I know what it's like to have to choose between gas in your car and putting food on the table. I know what that's like. Here are the solutions we are going to offer to make sure that you don't have to make that choice. That is what New Brunswickers want because we are one of the poorest provinces and usually we are the poorest province in the country. We have two multibillion dollar corporations here in the province. We have massive swaths of our public service that are privatized and people want solutions that are going to give them the services that they pay for already. When you pay taxes, you pay for your public service, you deserve to have access to it whenever you need. And you deserve to have it be as a high quality as somebody who was going to a private clinic in the US. We deserve what we are paying for, and we deserve better. And that is what people are wanting. They want somebody who's going to come out and say, I am unequivocally giving you what you deserve. They want a green economy because they want jobs. That's what people are worried about. We talk about, you know, transitioning, that's the most common thing that comes up, is people are like, well, what are you going to do about my job? I work at the refinery. I'm a pipeline worker, what are you going to do about my job? Well, we're going to do is we're going to pay to retrain you in a position that you want to do. And we are going to transition you into that economy to make sure you have no loss of income. That is what people are desiring. And that is what we're offering. And you're absolutely right. The last poll that came out was 13%. In 13 months, we've gone up 11%. So if we can keep that trend going and maintain what we've got and keep growing, I have no doubt that New Brunswickers are going to elect New Democrats in the next election. 

Emily Steers  36:04  
Do you think the strike, like the visibility of the strike and your involvement in the strike, has helped with that? And actually, what has the NDP involvement in the strike been? What does that look like?

Mackenzie Thomason  36:15  
Yeah, so it absolutely is. When I'm on the picket line, and you know, I'm wearing my little orange bow tie. People are like, you're the NDP guy, right? And I'm like, Yep, my name is Mackenzie Tomlinson. I'm the leader of the New Brunswick, NDP. And they're like, well, thank you so much for supporting us. And I'm like, Well, I am supporting you. But I'm also a striking worker — Yeah — Like, I am here for 10 hours a day, because I support you. I'm here for four hours a day because I have to be on picket line. But when I explain to them, Listen, I'm a school bus driver. And I am not only here to support you, I am you, I am with you, because I am one of your colleagues, the excitement that comes into their voice, because they know that there's somebody there who's not just present for political opportunism. It's not a way to get elected. It is a way for me to ensure that myself, my mother and my grandfather have retirements that we can be proud of, and for me and my mother, that we have wages that we can be living on. So it's not political for me. And when I explain that to people, they're really, really excited because for so long politicians show up, they take two or three pictures, namely, yeah, don't get me wrong. I've taken pictures because I want to show solidarity with my union family. But I am there because I want my future to be better. And when people hear that, I think it's really ringing in their ears because they know there's somebody there to support them. Members have been across the province. If the strike is still going on on Friday, I am planning on going to many picket lines around the province. But we have been out and about in all of our communities from up north in the Dalhousie area to down south in St. John and Moncton and Miramichi, we have been on the picket lines with our union family, a lot of New Democrats are members of CUPE. And if they're not members of QP, they are members of a labor union, or they are people who are, you know, would be classified as lower middle class or working poor. They are coming out to ensure that they are standing with their union family and with their New Democratic family. And that is really ringing true to a lot of people. And it is allowing me as leader to rebuild relationships with the union leadership because as you may or may not know, what some of the listeners may or may not know, between 2010 and 2014, we had a leader who is now the current minister of a Progressive Conservative education system. — Oh no, oh no — During their leadership, the strain was really put on hard between the leadership of the party and the leadership of many public sector unions. This is really giving me a way to rebuild those bridges, to say listen, not only am I a CUPE member, I am a union member. I am not going to treat you the way the previous leaders have treated you. I cannot do enough apologizing, there is not any more apologizing I can do, but I am willing to do the work. Words without action are meaningless, right? I am willing to do the work that is required to regain their trust, to regain their hope in the New Brunswick NDP. Because we are the ones who are going to get their members elected so that this doesn't happen. The more workers who are in that house, the less often we are going to have bills come up that are anti-worker. That is the main goal. It has to be the main goal and the strike has allowed me to rebuild relationships with union leadership to make sure that that is what we are both working for going forward.

Daniel Tarade  39:31  
That's really awesome, McKenzie, and I have to just say your perspective on this is what I wish to hear at the Ontario Federation of Labor convention last week, where I ran on a militant union slate, and we had a great showing actually but the establishment slate, the head of the house of labour in Ontario, what they wanted was, you know, uncritical support for the NDP. We support the NDP, you're here, but they had no talk about job action. They had no talk about fighting for workers. Their whole plan was reduced to just voting in the NDP. And what I'm seeing in New Brunswick is, is a bit of the opposite. You are winning the trust of the unions, and you're there with them in solidarity because ultimately, you have the same people represented in both. The NDP can almost then be seen then as the political body of the working class. And that's what it needs to embody. And that means being active on the picket line. And it means not ignoring the hard but necessary work of job action. Because as working people, that's really our only action. The political action that we have available to us the political power will only stem from our job action, in our job power, and our labor power and the organization there. So thank you for showing that possibility forward. In Ontario, it's been really disappointing, just to see how our labor leaders have given up on fighting on that front.

Mackenzie Thomason  40:54  
Yeah, and that's, that's really, the exact way I want to think of it is the New Brunswick, NDP, and I wish the NDP on a national scale, and on each provincial locally scale, was there to be the political voice of labour, right. Labour's job is to represent their members in the workplace. But we need to be there to represent workers in the political space. It's something I am willing to do the work on. It's something that I am willing to bust my butt trying to get as many people together so I can explain to them and offer my services. That's my main thing, right? I can go and say, Listen, I'm so sorry for what Dominic Cardy did for those six years as leader. I can't expect that to bear fruit, right? I need to nurture it, I need to make sure that they understand as far as union leadership goes that I am unequivocally on their side because I am a worker and that they are willing to put their trust in us to be that political voice of labor. — Wow.

Emily Steers  41:56  
Well, and it sounds like you know, that's, that is the best apology that anyone could ever ask for. You know, words, words mean very little, especially, you know, when it comes to political ambition, as we all know, but you are out there doing the work,  standing in solidarity. And what more proof of change could you ask for? Just speaking of the national NDP and the other provincial NDP, what what has the communication been like? You know, you're a new leader. We just had a federal election like what's, what's the engagement been from the Federal NDP and the other provincial NDP parties.

Mackenzie Thomason  42:34  
It has been great. They all congratulated me in some form or another, especially here in the Maritimes. PEI NDP were very, very vocal about it, which is great. We're both very small provinces, very small parties. So it was nice to have some solidarity there. Jagmeet Singh has been supportive of our job action here in the province, which is great. Once our job action is done, and now that we've gotten through the federal election, I am going to be looking to kind of grow that relationship a little bit better. Obviously, during the federal election was not a great time to start fostering those kinds of things — yeah, probably — So now the federal election is over, And once our job action is over, we can really sit down and figure out a way to more adequately tie our parties together, not necessarily in policy, because sometimes we disagree on policy, but that's okay. We can definitely communicate our resources to each other. And I think that's really what we need to start doing to make sure that we get our policies to Canadians at large or New Brunswickers here in the province, is making sure that those who are here to work, that we are all working towards the same goal, which is having progressive leadership in our legislatures and in Parliament. And I am very much so looking forward to speaking with the leaders and the caucuses of other provinces, and of course, federally as well, to make sure that we can more streamline and move around our resources as needed. We're New Democrats, we tend not to have huge, you know, multi-million dollar campaigns and $100,000 staffers that we can pay. So moving around and helping support those who are willing to go and help other New Democrats across the country is something I'm looking forward to focusing on.

Daniel Tarade  44:10  
That's really heartening. And hopefully your success here and your success despite what some other NDP might think as really radical and job action-oriented, hopefully it shows other NDP leaders, you don't have to choose between electoralism and mass job action. Those two can go hand in hand. As we're kind of winding up on the hour here. There's something that we would be very remiss not to mention, but as the job action began, was it the Attorney General of New Brunswick or the government otherwise, but they began forbidding land acknowledgments. Can you catch everybody up to that and what you as the leader of the NDP in New Brunswick see as an important struggle for Indigenous self determination and what's the context there for that?

Mackenzie Thomason  44:58  
The government, I don't think it was the Attorney General specifically, but it was the government as a whole. I think it was the Attorney General who actually gave the order, but it was to implicate all public government-run meetings. And the main reason for it was they are currently in a battle with First Nations in the province. And they didn't want that to be able to be entered as evidence. They didn't want First Nations lawyers to be able to come forward and say, well, the government's acknowledging that this is our land, so why are they fighting us in court kind of thing. My opinion is it is the traditional and unceded and unsurrended territory of the Mi’kmaq, Wolastoqiyik, and Peskotomuhkati peoples here in New Brunswick. We give land acknowledgments before our executive meetings, before our council meetings, and before meetings of our affiliates and our registered district associations within our local ridings here in the province. We do have different ones. So if we're meeting in person, and it is in a specific spot, then we'll say You know, this is the traditional unceded and unsurrendered territory of the Mi’kmaq if we're meeting in traditional Mi’kmaq territory, or Welustuk, or what have you, we do have different ones for where we're meeting. And if we're online, we do make sure that we specify all three. I believe it is literally the least we can do as political people. It's literally the easiest and the smallest thing to do. Obviously, I believe that we need to go far beyond that. I'm not trying to say that land acknowledgments are going to fix every issue that have ever existed, right? They're not going to fix colonialism. But it is literally the smallest and easiest thing to do to say, Listen, we are attempting at our core to instill this idea that we are on borrowed lands, that we are on stolen land, and that we need to start recognizing not only the treaties that were signed but the repercussions of colonialism as a whole. The reason the government did it was extremely political. And from a legal standpoint, I'm sure they probably thought it was justified. I don't agree with that point.

Emily Steers  46:53  
Does the NDP in New Brunswick, are you currently working on kind of rebuilding that relationship?

Mackenzie Thomason  46:59  
Yes, so we have a visible minority caucus, just one of our affiliate wings within the party. And that is really where I would like to get all of our policies. So in New Brunswick, we are very focused on making sure our policy is created from the bottom up, from grassroots support. And part of that is making sure that when we have a policy that is related to anything related to First Nations issues, or people who are immigrants or visible minorities, that caucus, that affiliate wing is creating those policies. So as a white individual, I don't think it is my place to create those policies. As leader, it is my job to convey those policies to the public. But as a leader within this party, I want to make sure that those kinds of discussions are happening with people who are directly affected by the outcome of said policy. So that is what we're doing internally to make sure that policy is created not by people who think they're doing well, but by people who are living these experiences, and ensuring that the policy is going to help the people it is intended to help instead of you know, again, half doing what it's intended to do. And we have that for a lot of different people groups as well. It's approach we've taken to our policy as a whole, but it is something that I'm very glad is existing because I want to make sure that groups I don't belong to feel represented in this party and feel like they can produce policy that is going to help them and that I will then speak to on a provincial level.

Emily Steers  48:21  
That's amazing. — Emily, any last questions? — As someone who went to New Brunswick for school and lived there for four years, it's genuinely so amazing to hear about the directions that things are going in the province because as you said, there's a lot of poverty in New Brunswick, and there is a really desperate need for a party and a government that genuinely cares about people's well-being, genuinely cares for the well-being of workers, for vulnerable people, and who will commit to a just transition for New Brunswickers. And so it's so so heartening to hear about the success of the strike thus far, your success in the NDP, and the potential future directions for all of this. So I congratulate you, and I am so so so excited to see what happens next.

Mackenzie Thomason  49:12  
Thank you so much, both of you for having me and to socialist action as more broadly for having me on this. It's always great to talk to people and explain what the Party is trying to do to help everyday workers, to help make sure we transition our economy, to make sure we are putting people and workers first, which is something that, like you said, Emily has been lacking in New Brunswick for a very, very long time.

Emily Steers  49:35  
Thank you so much, everyone for tuning in and staying up to date on all of the political goings on. We really appreciate you taking the time to tune in to The Red Review. Stay healthy, stay active, and solidarity.